Israel vs Hamas and Palestine. Gloves Are Off!!!

this is Church's lame I'm Scott I'm

Mark yeah we haven't done that in a long time no but basically we are going to go like narcissistic this week and talk about ourselves um you know every week we talk about our opinions but this week we're going to talk about our opinions on our opinions we're getting all meta we're getting super meta so first of all thank you to everybody who watched our last video about our thoughts about the church's response to the war in Israel appreciate like it's one of our more recently posted videos it's one of our higher performing videos so thank you to everybody who's watched it and responded to it that being said some of the responses um well like we we in the episode we specifically talked about how we wanted this to be a nuan conversation about the church church and not about geopolitics and a lot of the the comments just made it about politics anyway um slapping our risks for either being pro or anti-israel or hermas Hamas hermas why did I put an r on that I I don't know like isn't it like hermas like some sort of like super expensive brand of clothing or something or words is hard yeah so I really don't like the way what was supposed to be a Nuance conversation turned into something that totally lost Dimension so this week we're we are going to go into the politics of it and at least if if we're going to be judged on our political stances we're at least going to have a nuanced conversation about our political stances and we're going to hope that the internet doesn't internet us on this one again so you know well at least at least this time if they internet us on this one they can't say that we didn't like speak our minds um wholeheartedly and the extent that we were able to right that we didn't hold back I don't I personally um don't think there's any benefit to talking about the larger story of Israel because like we said last week um most Christians are kind of anti-intellectual and if even if they're not anti-intellectual like if they're like me they're just dumb right so either you hate smart people or you aren't a smart person one or the other right so I think like your church and your pastor and the people the your inner circle of people that you trust for spiritual education is the place to go talk about that so I I really just kind of want to talk about what is the current state of affairs if that makes sense so I'm going to start with two statements that I think are fairly hopefully non-controversial and you can tell me if you agree or disagree okay sounds good um and and for the record I hope you disagree I hope this is not a conversation where where we're trying to change each other's minds but we can demonstrate that you can have a difference of opinion and and still be United in faith you know yeah so let me say these two things up front and hopefully To The World At Large these are not controversial opinions one the ongoing treatment of Palestinians in Gaza in the open air prison is abhorent there is no justification there is no excuse or rationale that can be given that would make the lack of human dignity that has been withheld from them acceptable I mean I don't think that's and that's not really a controversial statement to make I don't think there are people who are so dug in and and meshed in a position that they may skip over that like um like they they may just like go keep going back to their tropes like well what about Israel what about the promised what about this but I don't think I've ever met anybody who who's ever said well yeah the everyday Palestinian deserves what they got you know yeah and it's it's kind of absurd to suggest that like the everyday person is is the issue here I mean because it's you know Netanyahu declared war so like he's not throwing you know Junior High kids with rifles at the pal you know you know at Hamas um you know he's using the military so it's like you know regular people are going to are getting hurt have gotten hurt in this situation they will get hurt and like that that's not something I can I can just stand by and be like oh yeah that's fine it's like no like this this nonsense needs to end like war is bad yeah you bring up an interesting point though because when it comes to Palestine there is no military in that sense yeah the terrorists are the citizens the citizens are the terrorists so what what is the litmus test to separate a Hamas terrorist from a Palestinian uh civilian or or or like that in between gray area of a Hamas sympathizer you know what is it when you put the ink on the strip and it runs up and you can separate the different chemicals I mean um like I don't know what is that I don't remember what that process is called but it's not so easy to separate the three you know Hamas is the duly elected government of the people they were tired like it was very much like the election of Donald Trump they were tired of the corruption and the business as usual and they were willing to vote in a crazy choice to make change and now that that the repercussions of that are Beyond The Pale I guess right yeah yeah you bring up you bring up a good point that like Netanyahu has brought this one of the world's Elite military powers to bear on on a what a couple million people who are living in destitution you know yeah and it's like the the thing that's really frustrating is you know that you know when we talk about Hamas um being you know like that's like a legitimately elected government but you know our government wants to call them a terrorist organization um it's it's weird to declare a a government a terrorist organization we would just call it a government you know um we would call it a bad one or we'd call them corrupt or whatever but it's it like that's what it is but s sugesting that you know palestine's government is on any kind of equal footing with Israel's government in terms of you know structure and whatnot is a little bit absurd um just because it's like you know you it's it's not quite the same thing right except the There are rules in this world right and one of the rules is when you go to war you go to war soldier against Soldier military against military government against government that's not what Hamas does what Hamas does is more Ain you know a terrorist um game book and so that's why it's easy to put that label on them right because in the military world we don't take civilian prisoners we don't take will women and children to make them hostages and and so if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I have a hard time finding any reason not to call it a duck yeah I mean I could see that um you know I'm just looking at it through just kind of like the lens of of language and how we talk about these things um because there's definitely some severe biases there too you know it's like I've you know it's like I see one headline that says like you know like you know Israeli military strike kills 100 but then a Hamas military strike massacres 10 like legitimately I've seen those two headlines so Israel only kills 100 people and it was a civilian Target and but Hamas massacres 10 people um it's like you there's there's a there's an unevenness in how it's talked about um and it's just kind like we're we're assigning you know you know Hamas is automatically bad like they have no legitimate complaint or position to come from to do what they've done um and when it comes to killing civilians I'm you know I'm kind of with people on that one but at the same time um you know we can't just sit there and excuse the relationship between these two countries and just chalk it down to one person's the bad guy it's like no like any attempt to to make peace has failed time and time again or maybe there was a shortterm victory um but there are people that are calling for uh you know the extermination basically of Palestine um you know on I'm not necessarily saying in Israel but you know there are wacko political people here that are calling for Palestine to just be eradicated so it's like if if that's how people are talking about your country like that doesn't really put you in the best of places to say well we're just going to take it easy and be really strategic you maybe lashing out wildly is the most sensible reaction for somebody doesn't excuse it but it means that we have to have a more thoughtful response sure but now after you just spent 2 minutes saying all that yeah what's the difference between um that and for the last how many decades the Arab world wanting to exterminate all Jews it's no better that that's that's the thing that's that's the thing I want to make sure that we keep coming back to is that even though we just spent two minutes on on the plight of the Palestinians we are not saying that that I am not saying that Palestinians are innocent or that I support uh Israel or anything like that we just spent two minutes making one side of the case and some of you are going to comment like how dare you support Palestine and I'm telling you all to cool your jets it was just two minutes of Mark making a very good case in a very oh my gosh you had do the peace sign you had the peace sign Mak it a good case in a rational way does not mean that we've taken one side of the other because I just like in a couple words I just annunciated the other side is that it's no different for Palestine um forever for all of human history they've been a people without a home now they have that home and they are still one bad day away from Extinction which is the bummer of being a small country is that surrounded by countries that hate you is that you your head is always on the chopping block which is why they are the socio military economic Powerhouse that they are because if they weren't they wouldn't be here anymore yeah and uh when we when we're talking about you know like that part of the world a lot of Christians will just what's the word I want to look for um just uncritically accept that Israel has to exist and it and it has to continue existing in perpetuity um for specifically theological reasons um because they believe that Israel existing means that Christ is going to return very soon and if likeor Israel just packed up and went you we're out of here these Christians would know to do with themselves I me they they legitimately freak out and the worst part of that to me is that like it causes a lot of Christians on this side of the ocean to do a lot of you know armchair politicking it's like you're not a citizen of one of these two countries you're not a you're not a Jew in in Israel you're not a Jew or a Muslim in um you know Israel or in Palestine you don't have any stakes in the game you know unless you like are from there or have family there it's like you don't probably know anywhere near enough to make the call that like ultimately God has to make the call like like me all I can do right and I think you too right we can just see what we see we can respond and we can at least respond and say like look this kind of like fighting this Bloodshed you know we don't like it in Ukraine Sudan you know you know in Korea we don't like it anywhere you know Bloodshed is bad I I'm going to keep coming back to that I don't want to sound like a broken record but it's like to me that is like my ultimate point for it it's like I just want that to end yeah yeah I would just say that that in your rhetorical style it ends up sounding like the Bloodshed of Palestinians is bad and you want the Bloodshed of Palestinians to end well I mean just it's a conflict between two parties I want want both parties to stop throwing rocks and stuff at each other that would be super nice you know okay let me get back to my train of thought here um really quick um the last thing I want to say about the distinction uh Palestine Hamas and and and and sympathizers one thing I would like for those of you who really want to understand this Beyond just Christian tropes and media headlines is that when you hear the word Hamas you should think Iran and then when you think Iran you should think Russia and so you we should be asking ourselves the question so when Russia and Iran look at the situation in Israel and Palestine does peace benefit them or does chaos benefit them through the chaos process do they get to paint um Israel's supporters I.E the us as the bad guy that's just kind of a little aside but an important aside because where do all the money and weapons come from homas yeah and and that's you know that's the sticky thing about you know World politics is it tends to involve multiple countries sometimes on both sides at the same time exactly and then for the just because I talked about Hamas where do you think all the money and weapons come for Israel yeah Uncle Sam right so nobody's innocent and I'm not trying to say that one side is right and one side is wrong I'm saying it's a complex issue even if we take away the the hundreds and hundreds of years of Home people without a Homeland even if we only talk about the last five decades it's still a very complex issue right and there's plenty of blame to go around including looking in the mirror as a country and saying the the US gets to burden a big part of that even though I think secretly the British are really to blame but that's a whole another conversation I that the British are to blame for most things I think you know colonizers I mean they made Canada Canada made poutine just saying there's a link there there's a link okay so so you know in in my in my mind I had this very wellth thought out outline we we're drifting around a little bit that's okay because I think you're making some great points so so so let me just keep kind of marching on here all right March um okay the other thing in my whole lifetime I cannot think of a single time where a Homeland for the Jews has has really been like settled it's a settled matter it it's fade comple it is done we as a worldwide Community accept a Homeland for the Jews right and uh and the reason that's that's an important thought to me is because every time Israel responds with Force they get a slap on the wrist every single time yeah it's as if the Jewish people are the only people on the face of the Earth not allowed to defend their sovereign borders and and like to me like I get it and I understand that like it would kind of help if they didn't overreact every single time something happened like that would be nice but at the same time we we never question it like we don't question Ukraine's Sovereign borders I think Obama was a pansy for not defending crimea's Sovereign borders so why is it that that Israel is the one place where they're not allowed to use Force to defend themselves that's I don't know you know it I I think you know when when we look at the history like the map lines right you know it's like okay well who should have what territory that has been in Flex since 1948 you know it's like there was there were lines drawn said okay this is going to be Israel this is going to be Palestine and you know there we go we're fine and then there was some Wars that happened and you know then all of a sudden those lines got pushed so there was more Israel and less Palestine and that has been happening since right um like that is like that is like a weird thing because you know on the one side yeah Israel does have I think you know generally speaking a right to defend its borders but then so did you know Palestine at that time too so it's like more of that land's being taken away from them um and you know some people talk about you whether there there needs to be a one-state solution or a two-state solution and I I believe Netanyahu was like written off a two-state solution but I might be misremembering that so correct me if I'm wrong I think I think you're right first of all yes I think you're right I think probably firing missiles into Israel and taking a couple hundred people hostages means that Hamas is probably also written off a two-state solution yeah it sounds like it seems to me like now they are all in in in some sort of quote unquote Final Solution you know yeah I I I try to avoid using a phrase the phrase Final Solution in regards to you know any group of people really but uh yeah I mean so it's like when we we look at that it's you know I I think you know International politics is another place that we can look to to be like this is part of why this conflict is happening and in America and its policies are partly to blame for sure sure you know because we never you know did the hard work to encourage those borders to stay in place um and the US military has been used variously throughout history to do some very interesting work on you know National sovereignty throughout the world so it's like there's definitely an hypocrisy about how we approach like that specific region yes for sure all right moving on moving on because I do want to kind of keep this under like five hours so yeah yeah all right so let's see where we at next here um I think we already talked about this but let's let's just skate through it real quick is is there still an Arab desire to experience a world without the Jews and I think I I've kind of said I think there is I think there is very clearly still an appetite among Arabs to to see this nuisance go away I and once again I just kind of bring that up because here in America we don't even think about it we we are so incredibly confident the lazy Mexicans and the um the Socialist Canadians are never going to invade our borders and our sovereignty and our country's borders are impr impregnable words is hard impregnable like we are so secure in that the United States will live in perpetuity and and I think that's important to remember whether or not we like it from the Israel perspective they are always one bad day away from not existing yeah our situation is definitely different here and I think that's what makes like the armchair polit you know politicizing about this kind of thing even more annoying and it's annoying when I do it right because it's like I I think it was I think it was Stalin who said it but it was like you know you know like it's like like I'm jealous of America because they have weak neighbors to the north and south and fish to the east and west yeah it's like you know it's like like we we have a very specific view of things and like we haven't had in our lifetimes we haven't had to use violence or think about violence in terms of defending our territory or defending our population you know like directly we've had some terrorist attacks but like you you don't mobilize the military to defend against a terrorist attack they they happen and then you have to do something after the fact like e even if our our borders were at stake we would probably never hear about it right we'd never hear about some Russian nuclear sub you know doing a hump for an October thing and coming up on our Shores and having to be chased Away by our own submarines you know that that's a story that would never be told you know so so the real stories of danger are never told so that everybody could live you know calm peaceful lives with their two and a half kids and white picket fences yeah and you and then like looking at you know the Middle East um I mean that region of the world it's the borders the Nations like the people the religions the the the cultural Traditions um like it's a it's a lot going on in a much smaller area yeah I mean because when you think of you know the United States being you know I'm going to say you know hamaj but I'm going to put that in some you know heavy air quotes right you know we're a lot more homogeneous um than that region over a much bigger space yeah um and so I think that also kind of goes into how we tend to view what's going on over there it's like we look at you know Israel like it's the West Coast but right you know it's not that big um so you know when we're we're looking at all those things it's like a lot of of people that have had like a lot of historical tensions are very close to each other and so I think that just kind of creates a backdrop where you know I'm not going to say that war is more likely but friction is a lot more present right and that's a good that's a great way to put it yeah yep all right let's move on here I I think we've brushed by this as well but I really would like to go a little bit deeper into this one and just for the viewer all I did was write down a bunch of what I think are the central questions that that we should Ponder before we go out making snap judgments about all this um I think one of the questions that kind of haunts all of us because we'd all like to think of ourselves as um all Sin is Sin and no sin is worse than any other even though that's the way our churches operate all the time right I used to have a pastor who used to say um violence is good sex is bad like when he's talking to youth groups and stuff and so but like I think think we really do have to come to a reckoning about um is the kind of atrocity that we see done to the Palestinians in Hamas and you know once again I use the phrase open air prison I don't think 15 years in like it's a very well-kept sacred anymore that the people of Palestine Palestine were just hard are treated awfully right so is the human rights violations committed against the Palestinians is that equivalent better worse equal to the terrorist acts that are committed against Israel and I do use the word terrorism because once again these are acts that are not focused on government and Military they are focused on wreaking havoc with the population you know so are these equivalent things and there's a part of me that wants to say yes all violence is bad it's all equivalent but there's a part of me that also can't get there there's a part of me that sees the distinction and cannot ignore it and I want to know if if you feel the same way or if you or if you just if you are able to just say you know yeah all violence is bad yeah I mean it's like for me it's it's it's like all violence is just you know you know done to those who do not deserve it is equally bad um you know whether you've maed people or killed people I mean it's like there's there is like a level of difference to me you know there it's like if I punch you but then you you kill my dog like it's you know a little bit of different thing um you know but you know putting people in open air prisons etc etc etc it's none of this is good you know it's like you can't claim to be you know to have the moral High Ground when you're acting immorally you know so you know it's like like well you know Hamas attacked you know civilian Target okay well then you can attack Hamas military targets because they're they're the ones that are shooting the stuff but there are none that that's my point there are none it's Palestine there are none it's like I mean but like like not all Palestine is a military Target you know there are things going on there so it's like to me it's it's just like we got to end the violence period yeah um but at the same time I'm not going to wag my finger and say you know well you don't have justification for you know going to war against Palestine um when you've gotten attacked like that but how you go about it needs to be better than the way it was gone about you interesting okay so let me the best let's go on to so this leads right into my next point then or my next question and and so this is super important then um if you're Hamas there is no shortage of government and Military targets to to Target right like they they've got freaking laser based weapons now in Israel right they're shooting missiles out of the Skies with laser beams at this point so there is no shortage of military targets but if you're Israel looking for quote unquote high value targets what do you do when Hamas is storing weapons underneath hospitals and schools and fire departments you know what do you do when all the high value targets are underneath civilian installations uh and yeah this this is the armchair politicking here that I don't want to engage in but you know my my only answer be like um just don't indiscriminately bomb the area you know it's like maybe take you know take control and seize control of a territory so you can remove the element that needs to be removed so if you need to take out a weapons cach don't blow up the hospital take over the hospital get rid of the weapons yada yada yada so better to be an occupying Force than to have collateral damage that yeah like I mean to me collateral damage is the worst part of war is the worst part right I understand that I appreciate that and um that actually helps a lot in understanding um the difference that we have is that like you're really focused on the collateral damage and not so much about the geopolitics oh I mean the geopolitics are interesting but yeah it's like just the people that don't want to be part of the fight getting hurt is just awful sure or getting dead yeah so where we at next here um we you and I actually had a short conversation about this after our last episode but neither one of us had the uh the the the wits about us to actually vocalize it during the episode isn't it ironic that it's God's Own people wandering in the desert without a place to call home that has now forced Palestine Palestine words is hard into effectively the same situation they are they are they are living in squalor without the access to move freely to worship where they choose to worship to be who they want to be when they want to be it um isn't it interesting that God's Own people are have now become the oppressors well you're like they are just like people have been displaced of their homes I mean like within the territory of Israel PE you know Palestinians who are living there have been kicked out of their homes um there's been a lot of problem you know with that whole situation and so yeah like they're making this this people a homeless people and it's like you know where's where's all those those that stuff in the Torah about like you know treating the The Foreigner and the stranger and the Sojourner well you know that's that seems to have disappeared um but then I think that's like a big difference between you know the the nation state of Israel and God's people Israel as recorded in scripture like they're not automatically the same thing exactly and they're not even close to the same thing anymore uh which once again I refer you to our last episode um the Israel that exists today has nothing to do with the Israel of the Bible from my point of view and the two of them should not be discussed in the same breath not that you could like how' you do that like okay well I don't think you're supposed to speak two things at the same time I think you just speak them serially without breathing there you go okay all right hey by the way Alanis morset for those of you um who did know Alanis morset from the Jagged Little Pill era and who ID lized her from that do a quick search for Alanis Moret and star search and and I will just say you're welcome for that I'm not going to search for that I'm I'm just saying that right now not not if you don't want your dreams to be crushed yeah but but if you're willing to take a little bit of a ride you will not be disappointed yeah like all right yeah I I did almost look up like the where are they now for all the people that W in Children of the Corn yeah just cuz I'm curious yeah wow okay it's October right the million-- dooll question that nobody has a good answer to Is what is Israel supposed to do and I think that's kind of what I've been hinting at through my series of questions it's like what are you supposed to do you are a superpower you do have Sovereign borders are you just supposed to sit by and do nothing while while terrorists lob missiles into your country while terrorists take your civilians hostage is that acceptable behavior that like any US president that allowed 200 people to become hostages and did nothing like would be impeached and removed from office immediately I understand the sentiment of what about Palestine I get that part of the sentiment I don't understand the part of the sentiment that is being incredibly critical of Netanyahu for having to bow to for the realities of the real world and saying we need to respond we need to respond now we need to respond unequivocally and we need need to respond in a way that says this will not end well for you I don't understand what that criticism is about yeah I mean it's like I don't like what happened but again like I can't look at it without going eh be just because exactly what you just said like it's it's it's too hard uh to say well you shouldn't have done that um I mean for me it's more like yeah like this maybe could have been avoided you know I don't know that for a fact I mean but like there's that part of me that's like you know I'm I'm wondering how much of this could have been avoided and that's the only finger waging I can attempt to do yeah um is like you know if if you didn't do enough work to avoid the fight when somebody punches you in the face I'm not gonna jump in and like stop it you know yeah my my criticism is is is like we know that one of the benefits of having lots of money is that you get choices in this world right choices that you have when you're not poor and Israel so because of that Israel they have wealth they have resources they have the support of every first world nation um in the Free World you know so they have choices for how to respond but then I asked the same question about Palestine what is Palestine supposed to do how do you convince the world that that you're you're a people of Peace when when it's your own people who join up with Hamas and carry out these horrible actions and you have no money you have no resources you don't have the sympathy and support of the world what do you do to bring awareness to your plight to put a spotlight on in the Injustice in a world that seems to care less and less about Injustice in favor of capitalistic advancements you know what do you do yeah I mean and and like just to put some scale to that too I mean like when you have the United States has been a a political friend and a militarist militarist a military friend words is hard I get it yeah to Israel for you know decades um so it's like you know you're this like you're you're in a a a quote unquote country that's getting smaller and smaller by the decade um and the the chief aggressor for you know your situation is your neighbor who was backed by one of the most powerful countries in the world you know yeah like what are you supposed to do yeah and yeah so it's it's it's complicated and I just I just wish it's like one of those you know you know take out Harry Potter's magic wand and say something that sounds like Latin and then poof like everybody figures it out there's an extra piece of land in the Mediterranean and all the Palestinians live there or something I don't know exactly I would like to say this though in really like in in a serious attempt to to kind of say something that maybe I haven't heard said very much either on I haven't heard it all said on TV and in the media and haven't heard anything really like this said in the social media circles either and it's this if you're Palestine or Israel and you are serious about living up to the hype that you try to create about living peacefully with one another if you're serious about that you cannot be the the people who are constantly the first ones to fire the gun you know what I mean M like so like in so in this most recent case you know yes we can talk about the ongoing play of Palestine but there was a clear event that fired off a gun that that was the first Domino that fell in every event that that has since followed you know and and once again it's a curse on both sides because we can see this happening on both sides like if if you want to gain some like real currency in the world of being taken seriously you've got to stop being the aggressor you know and and sometimes you just kind of have to live with compromise you know and nobody wants to and like here in America nobody wants to anymore right uh we all want to like look look just look what's happening in the House of Representatives right now you know this this guy wants to be the house speaker so bad that he's had two failed attempts to get the votes that he needs but he's still pushing on so nobody ever wants to compromise but if anybody wants to be taken seriously on the world stage about the plight of their people you got to stop being the first one to pull the trigger yeah and you know when we're like looking at it as Christians and you know thinking so you know love your enemy is something that Jesus said right and you know it's important to say that you know when you say yeah well you have to love your enemy it doesn't mean you don't have enemies anymore because you love them they are still your enemy understanding why they're your enemy informs how you need to love them and in unfortunately you know like maybe the situation between Israel and Palestine wasn't one such where either one of them could have tried loving their enemy and have it end well yeah but each of these places has you know friends and neighbors who could have also jumped in and and done that too so it's it's one of those like if if you have you know uh like a church community and you know you have one person is just horribly suffering and nobody ever helps him out whose fault is that right you know and and it's not me just trying to equivocate but it's just it's another thing to to put on the pile of something to think about I think you

know anyway we are Church's lame and um you may have heard this you might watched this episode or heard this podcast and thought to yourself man Mark and Scott they really Pro this or anti- this or whatever and what you heard is I'm looking at the counter now roughly a 40-minute conversation of some some Loosely form thoughts and what we are is pro Jesus we are pro love we are pro peace um we are um I don't know in in one sense we are hippies and we would love just to see like pece love and dope reain throughout the world um understanding that we live in the real world uh we're just trying to have conversations that spread a little bit of uh reality to all of the craziness the conversation is going on right now so if you have anything you want to add to the conversation by all means you know uh leave a comment give us a thumbs up or the thumbs down um we give us a rating um if you really want to have it out with us in long form send us an email church is link name podcast gmail.com if you'd like to support support us in more meaningful ways um by all means hit us up on buy me a coffee or patreon on super thanks or one of those things uh we really appreciate it thank you and with that go in peace and serve the Lord amen hey if you really liked uh this video and you want to see more stuff just like this um there's going to be a q card up here with a playlist I don't know exactly what it's going to be called but you know click click click click click click click thanks a lot