Grand Canyon U Gets Sued by the Feds... Again

Grand Canyon University wants to be your favorite Christian College at least until the lawsuits put them out of business he this is Church's lame we can only hope yeah like I I utterly hate the commercials I see for this this school I mean I'm sure they'd be worse if I was up at like 3: in the morning like they make all sorts of like promises like like like you'll be able to levitate and and and see through lead walls and whatever oh my gosh like just if you go there it's supposed to be a Christian School I can't comment on how truly Christian it is or isn't if one can say truly yeah so it's supposedly the United States largest Christian school and I wonder what metric that's measured by is it just head count or is it revenue or like the article didn't exactly specify how that how that statement came to be within the last several weeks so like they've gotten two lawsuits leveled against them Federal lawsuits which is reassuring well it's interesting because usually the federal government will usually try not to get involved with matters of religion if they can help it yeah like like going doing anything at a Christian organization is or any religious organization is just fraud just to get through it real quick you know we got like like like three basic things going on um uh like first of all um they're accused of engaging in deceptive and abusive telemarketing practices that's just called salesmanship like deceptive and abusive it sounds like a Christian organization that we we talk about on this on this podcast perfectly normal perfectly normal Mark nothing to see here yeah um also like they they were like severely accused of of misrepresenting the costs and requirements for their doctoral programs and you had mentioned a specific number of people who like completed the program within costs you know I don't know what the normal like I know that like you know getting a doctorate or PhD or whatever like it's hard thing it's a hard thing to do and a lot of people crash and burn but 2% success rate within the estimated costs that seems pretty outside the margin to me yeah that that's pretty crazy and then like this third thing this one actually caught me off guard because the alleged crime here is that they're operating functionally as a for-profit instead of as operating as a nonprofit and and 60% of its Revenue supposedly is going to the parent company Grand Canyon educ a and its shareholders I I have to be angry about that because the notes it's in red text people I have to read the red text put in there by Yours Truly but I thought this was a for-profit school like this entire time it I I just it never looked to me the way they advertise themselves as if if they were ever a nonprofit school oh 60% of Revenue goes to shareholders how how else could you classify that than a for-profit company people who invest with the sole purpose of getting a dividend or return on their investment is the very definition of for-profit the single largest cost for a college should be salaries how are they only spending 40% on salaries and water and gas and electricity benefits and landscap benefits I do not understand like what this is It's people who've learned well from from the models of things like Phoenix University and Def University and all the other four profit schools that have come and gone I went to to University of Phoenix and D so it's funny you should mention those and I want to drry so so we know like step one uh if a computer's not working is you hit it did you reboot it have you tried turning it off back on again it's startling how many problems that fixes that's why I always loved like when I had to call you at work with with with it stuff cuz you never had to ask me did you turn it off and on again exactly right y the headline speaks for itself and I think it's going to be pretty evident and and how like well Scott you know Mark you guys are talking about school I thought we were talk we're supposed to be talking about churches Christian schools are basically the feeder system into Christian employment for most uh at least pastors and and people and people who are in in the clergy you know I don't want to say it's very rare but it's pretty rare for somebody with no formal training to get a pastoral job in a Mainline denomination if you have no training at all you're either hanging out your own shingle and saying hey my house is now a church come and hang out with us or you're probably getting hired at some smaller non-denominational church without any sort of formal training yeah it's like I really can't separate you know a Christian School from church in general I mean because it's like I went to Wheaten college right and so it's like you're only getting Christian kids there and a lot of those Christian kids are going there because their parents want them to get a Christian education as opposed to going to a state school or something you know and of course you know Wheaten college has a has a very good reputation I'm not saying it's completely Flawless that they've never had Med steps but you know like when you think like great Christian School you don't think Grand Canyon University the point the point just being that today's today's Christian students are tomorrow's Christian leaders this statement from the school that this just made me giggle in context of it and it's like given the major problems that exist in higher education it's baffling that the federal government has chosen to you know Target us and I'm like hey like what are these major problems you're talking about I know what they are and you know what they are and I'm sure everybody listening to this knows what those major problems are but it seems to me like if you've managed to behave in such a way that you've had multiple Federal cases pulled up against you in the same quarter of the year like you you're you're the source of problems here right and once again knowing that the government would like they would rather do anything than Sue a Christian organization you know in today's political climate I think it it's not too much to ask that you know a Christian you know education system should be of the highest moral character so that doesn't happen you would think that piece you would think you would think you would think that one piece of information right there would go without saying that moral character matters in a Christian School at every level among the students among the staff Among The Faculty among the shareholders you know I don't personally have a problem with for-profit schools just for that reason as awkward as the phrase for-profit Christian School is it doesn't necessarily ring to me as bad just because of that just how this whole situation is going down like it's clear that money is the preeminent driving force here and not the cultivation of the next generation of Christian leaders like the idea of a of a four private Christian School does rub me the wrong way because yeah if if your goal is to make tomorrow's Christian leaders like why are you profiting from the you know from the church it's not like the church r large tends to be like getting a lot of money it's like the churches that we see that have a lot of money are ones that we always seem to end up criticizing because it's lwood or whatever Joel oin is or some other mega church you know so for me it doesn't rub me theong way assuming that you make it perfectly clear to everyone involved we are for-profit school that is who we are and that's what we're about therefore caveat empor fire beware yeah this whole like 60% of its it's money that's but that's not the sales pitch right the sales pitch is we are the country's largest Christian University you will come here and have a familyfriendly wholesome bible-based College EXP experience even if your major is not Ministry you know even if you are pursuing some sort of liberal arts degree uh music or or whatever else business finance whatever it else the assumption is that it'll be bible-based and therefore uh conform to a certain moral character that you referred to I'm sure that the staff like if you're a teacher there um that you are expected to maintain a particular moral character who are the people that are enforcing this moral character are the people that don't have any like and that's that's just sad that's a problem right I'm hoping that the school can straighten itself out and fly right I I want to hear your thought like your thoughts first your thoughts first on like what you think that's that could look like three major problems deception in in their sales pitch right well that one pretty easy to clean up you've already got the largest headcount so you already have a pretty good sales pitch you know without having to lie about how money is used the 60% the easy way out of this mess is simply to take that 60% of money report to your shareholders from here going forward like your Dividends are not going to be nearly as um star spangled awesome as they've been in previous months and instead that money is going to go to missions around the world it's going to get funneled back into the churches that support us and the endowments and whatever else uh support us there's lots of ways to use that money other than just giving it away in dividends uh hey we can take that 60% and we can reinvest it into the doctoral program which is fleecing people left and right and use it in the form of scholarships to get more people out with higher degrees which would also be a great marketing pitch having a higher than average graduation rate with the higher level degrees it's a matter of using your money in the same way that you use your words characters morals spiritual depth foundational biblical principles it's just a matter of using your money the same way you use your words I think is really what it comes down to I would just like I mean I'd like to add to that you know a couple things and like the first thing is that I think you know when you are a Christian School like I don't even care if certain things are legal for you to do if it even gives the appearance of impropriety it ought to be avoided preach preach preach let's like let's read what Paul wrote in you know like First Corinthians about like eating meat that's been sacrificed to Idols he's like like yeah like you can do it Idols are nothing when we know that but like if another believer is looking at you going like stop doing it for their sake I think it's very important that we you know we don't give people the opportunity to make an accusation and I think that's going to mean in this case like yeah like some of the ideas that you spread there it's like it's going to require like some really good restructuring I'm not even sure of any for-profit school that operates on margins that thick but then like I think another thing is that like you know like people like you and me you know like just regular jerks who are going to send our kids to a school it's like we need to turn our backs on schools on you know that are screwing up you know at least until they fix their problems and like have shown that they are operating in good faith it's amazing how hard that is for Christians whether they be young Christians or older Christians there is a preoccupation in the church with not offending other people if you say something offensive you'll be accused of spewing Venom right like in Asia right you cannot say something offensive to somebody older than you more senior than you it's just not part of the culture it is taboo it's really an inversion of what we're taught like to speak the truth in love to live a life above reproach well the only way to be to have a life above reproach is to have a life where it's all put out in the open the you know the truth of my life is on display for everybody to see it's a really hard thing to turn your back on what you've always considered to be a pillar of Christian education in this in this case Grand Canyon University yeah uh because we're taught that when times get tough your default position should not be to turn away but to lean in and sometimes especially when it comes to money and people preoccupied with money preoccupied because they think it's like hey man it's a free market Market these people are free to spend their money wherever they want if they want to spend it with us so be it and sometimes when people are preoccupied with the accumulation of money sometimes the only way to get them back on the right path is to take that money away from them these for-profit companies we talked about how money is their focus and how money skews everything and what it does on the part of the faculty and the staff and the other leaders there is it creates this this whole it's your money it's your job to spend it well and to make the most and so what happens is it totally releases the faculty and the staff of stewarding the kids well if you're not there to Steward the kids then what good are you I can go anywhere and get an education on um Middle East archaeology I don't even have to go to a Christian School to take Old Testament review New Testament review those kind of things I can go to any school and get that the reason you go to a Christian School is because there's a faculty and staff that is committed to your success committed to taking this young excited person and teaching them the reality of ministry like yes it's exciting and it's it's fulfilling but it's also hard and a lot of times it's going to be heartbreaking especially when you realize how many funerals you're going to go to in your life that's the job of a Christian faculty and staff the same thing happens on the students side of it the students are like well it's my money so I'm going to just go take my test take my midterm take my final get my a and it doesn't matter if I've actually absorbed any knowledge it doesn't matter if I've actually built up a set of tools that are going to help me all that matters is I got my a I got my diploma and now I'm moving on so the students have no more stake than the faculty does when the students should should be like this faculty and staff they are masters of their craft I'm going to absorb their experience their successes their losses their heartbreaks for four years or whatever I'm going to absorb this and take it in and make it part of my tool set so when I come out the other end I am insanely prepared for this crazy life that we called Ministry and none of that happens in a for-profit environment because everybody involv students and teachers alike have other motive and they think that their money speaks louder than the actual process yeah that's that's the unfortunate reality that we have to deal with a lot of this stuff how do you fix it right what do you do to fix it I think we talked a little bit about it earlier just in the whole well a you got to use money differently if you're making 60% profit either something's not getting invested well or you're just a big money-making SK scheme and I doubt they're just a big money-making scheme right that's probably one two onedimensional yeah I would say that's that's a fair assessment but clearly there's a problem with the way they're spending money and that comes from a skewed view of how they see themselves I always think the fastest and the most pain-free routee out of this is a wholesale change of leadership it's time to say hey we got caught we got caught twice with our pants down yeah I go to the doctor and hey doctor it hurts when I wave my arm and the doctor says we stop w waving your arm and you keep waving your arm you keep doing the same thing you're going to get the same result so you got to get the leaders out of there you need to just wholesale change at the very least the administration to to bring to bear a different set of values on the situation and I would say that like you know they need to make sure because if you're going to be running a Christian School especially you need to be treating it as a mission and I would argue never as a business but you know even if you know if you're going to do that for-profit thing it needs to be first a mission and nothing in this in this article has made me feel like that's what they're doing so I'm hoping that like if they can replace that leadership like you're saying that that they will come in with like that fresh view of like no we need we need to rewire this thing as a mission first a mission to the students and the students families and you know to the faculty and and to the other staff just just to like make this a place that people will will want to be and the people that a place where people will encounter Jesus in the dayto day there's nothing wrong with having the best business Minds on your staff you want people like you want great minds on your staff there's not a single problem with that with the people who know how to take take a dollar and multiply it to $5 doll not a problem at all but these are not The Visionaries you want leading you these are the these are the people you want informing you helping you see the big picture so that you can make those missional decisions you can make those Ed educational decisions you can make those Kingdom decisions and yeah the money people will give you good information to help you on your path the minute you give them the keys to the car is the minute it all falls apart and it's starting to sound like Grand Canyon it's mostly business majors and finance Majors that are calling most of the shots over there like if you've known enough Pastors in your life you kind of figure that very few pastors are ever good at being pastors and good at money stuff and I don't mean like home finances I mean like most pastors couldn't run a business no matter how hard they tried big budget yeah big church budget yeah they're different skill sets that's something I appreciate greatly that like you that you brought that out you know it's like like have your people that they have this skill set and have people have this skill set and and let them work together one body many parts you know the Bible's pretty clear on that everybody can't do anything and that you're crazy for trying you know so surround yourself with good people with great advisers there's all sorts of lessons in the Bible about the wisdom of being a good listener and learning from those around you so by all means if you are on staff at Grand Canyon I hope you're listening and I hope that uh there are people there who aren't just going to try to figure out how to survive these lawsuits with the minimum amount of expense who do we have to lay off in order so I can still got my Christmas bonus that instead they learn the real lesson from this that there's a better way for a Christian School to operate yeah I think I would hope that the staff can be invested enough in that place that they can be a positive Force for driving good change as well so we're church is lame and you may have listened to this episode and thought to yourself man Mark and Scott they really just have it out for uh the church and for Christian institutions and I just want you to know that nothing can be further from the truth uh Mark is a graduate of a Christian institution he works professionally uh for a Christian institution we love the church and we want to see it succeed we just think that stories like this make it all too clear why the church is is losing its relevance in the modern day and we use this channel this podcast this YouTube show to to to make a repository of these reasons so that when church leaders kind of ask the question why is everybody walking away well here you go you're welcome and by the way let me mention real quick that our the podcast and YouTube have never been doing better we just crossed 5,000 subscribers on YouTube uh the podcast is firing on multiple cylinders I don't know how many you need to fire on four six or eight or 12 now that we're going now that we're going to electric cars there's no such thing as cylinders anymore now it's battery cells you know so maybe we're firing on 2,000 battery cells I don't know this is getting complicated man it's getting weird all that to say thank you thank you thank you thank you to everybody who watches everybody who listens everybody who leaves a rating everybody who leaves a review everybody who leaves a comment everybody who emails us at churches L podcast gmail.com thank you all for participating we appreciate you so so much party on Wayne party on G a bonus to you in the comment land if you know what movie that's from and with that go in peace and serve the Lord amen if you listen to us jabber on for 20 minutes and you want to hear more jabber jabber jabber jabber just like it um up above me to my left or right or maybe to beside me will be a card to a playlist yeah something there'll be a card somewhere with something and you'll see more content just like this thanks a lot