this is Andy Stanley pastor of mega church North Point Community Church in Alfreda Georgia he recently hosted a conference for families and clergy people and pastors of the lgbtq and the church world is going collectively out of its ever loving mind so let's talk about how um everything that's different is an existential crisis to the church is breaking the church and what we can do to fix
it yeah I know like this isn't like a red coffee cup yeah so like you know why are people getting all bent out of shape about this one I know hey before we get started I need to show you this because I am going to make the rest of your life miserable with this watch oh watch
this oh what fresh hell and I don't even need to touch the keyboard I can just do this and this there's there there's a reason I don't install software like this on my computer it's because I I I like people and I don't want to punish that thank you Mac os10 OSX Sonoma for those built-in webcam features uh how many of those are in iOS 17 so far eight of them that I know of and so so yes all right so back to business Andy Stanley um no stranger to being a lightning rod although I don't think this is so much about being a lightning rod um he I think they have privately been doing this in their Church kind of like these sessions on how family members can reconnect with their kids and how clergy can relate to their kids and now they've decided it's time to roll this out in a big way you know cuz when you roll it out in big ways there's lots of big PR and therefore lots of big money to be made right with books and DVDs and streaming and one-on-one counseling all sorts of money to be made um but yeah so that's what they've done they they've had a National Conference recently and the church world has gone crazy um so I just have a few details about it and then we can talk about how it breaks the church right on so Stanley himself has been trying to walk this tight RPP right on the one hand building this conference that says look this is a church that's going to minister to the lgbtq and we think all churches should on so on the one hand in this as far as this church goes the lgbtq are no longer second class citizens but just to make sure he doesn't make anybody too mad he continues to tow the line of we have always taught that marriages between a man and a woman and we have not changed that teaching and as far as we're concerned biblical marriage is a marriage between a man and a woman so trying to have the best of both in there um trying to minister to one group while still trying to tow the company line on on on the other hand which is interesting considering like if you're going to go you if you're going to be David against Kath you know uh there there's not a whole lot of benefit in uh trying to hem and Hall you know you got you have to grab your stones and and be ready to fight yeah you know and then the the criticism has been fairly obvious right fairly obvious anything other than the full-throated denunciation of all that is lgbtq plus alphabet is unchristian right and so that that's D I'm proud of you for I'm proud of you for using the phrase full-throated uh talking about this subject I get on the one side how you have churches who want to try to you know to ride this line like use the word tight RPP something I'm think of like like somebody like riding a bicycle in a tight RPP it's like they they want to be there they want to feel safe it's like well this is what we have to do it's like but ah it's there's just so many ways to error on on all sorts of sides of this yeah um but I least give them props for trying which is a lot more than many churches and pastors are willing to do I find the criticism and the blowback to be interesting cuz basically it all comes back to some variation of they want their C and eat it too and my thing is what human being on the face of the Earth doesn't want their cake and eat it to you know who doesn't want like who who in their life wants to make a decision between wealth and poverty you know that's not the the decision we want to make is between wealthy and uber wealthy you know can I have the Porsche and the Corvette or the Porsche or the Corvette those are the kind of decisions we want to make not can I have the Corvette or the bus pass you know so I like this argument always drives me crazy because it's fundamentally an argument that says human beings shouldn't be human yeah I mean it really is um and you know I feel like there's a line that like a church um you know can cross and it will be in threat of like losing denomination affiliation right so like so you know and you know Covenant churches you know the domination that I'm in right so it's like if if if pastors do certain things or if churches elect certain things then that church can be this Fellowship right which is really unfortunate but you can really go a long way um and like you know you could have you know LGBT people on you know in leadership you know serving everywhere in the the church and like I'm not sure if if Andy Stanley really has what's the hood Spa to to go that far or not I'm not sure what the line is as he's willing to go because you can try to sit there and say like oh we we want to welcome you and want to serve you but if you're not willing to go as far as you can um then you're you're just rejecting people but with a smile on your face that's a good point that you make a really good point and the other interesting thing is like many churches Andy Stanley enjoys a certain level of of protection and isolation and insulation from blowback right it doesn't matter if if a denomination disaffiliates North Point Community Church you know they're they're humongous they they give far more money far more money goes out the door in in Aid to others then comes in the door through any sort of denominational affiliation you know what I mean far more churches benefit Downstream from the money they make than they benefit from the money that small churches bring in you know so in in a one sense like if somebody like Andy Stanley isn't going to push the boundaries and like people like Rick Warren aren't going to push the boundaries in terms of women in leadership than nobody is because nobody is as popular and as well protected from real blowback as these guys are yeah which may be the only positive thing like any of us have ever said about mega churches yeah right yeah I guess that's true like I guess the benefit of a mega church is is you do you you have the runway and and you know the the the love of the people that you can do the big bold things that need to be done yeah and it's interesting you know that this week we had this headline and the other headline which we talked about um the one of the Pope you know blessing same-sex unions yeah um which is for the C Catholic Church like a real like just severe move in in that direction I mean they they still don't want to call it marriage right um because you have to make some people happy I guess but blessing you said like you know but what's the difference really if if you're blessing the union you're blessing the union yeah so for for anybody not aware um there's a you know big meeting all the Catholic leaders which in which of course includes the pope and uh and there definitely there's definitely language and hints and rumors that there is going to be a positional shift of some kind when it comes to recognizing or blessing uh the union of the lgbtq and the Catholic church so yeah I guess in a sense we do need these Larger than Life people who are who are in in a sense beyond what we would think of as normal accountability right they're they're kind of The Untouchables in that way way you know but let's let's uh let's switch gears let's talk about how this breaks the church a little bit okay sure um so this is a point that I keep coming back to over and over and I'm I'm astounded like we put we put out a short one time and on Tik Tok I continue this continues to be the most commented video we put out where it was a short so it wasn't even 30 seconds where I talked about my disappointment with um the splitting of the United Methodist Church uh over the lgbtq issue and we continue to get comment after comment after comment of how the church needs to hold the line right and anybody who doesn't hold the line is not a real Christian right and I'm amazed how often I have to explain to people that there's no such thing as a a singular Universal theology what we think about God and the nature of truth and the nature of Holiness and how to live um in peace with God and one another another that has all morphed over time different Faith Traditions interweave with one another and as societal pressures and individual pressures and political pressures come to bear on these things they change and they they become whatever needs to become for these Faith Traditions to keep moving and keep doing the work that they were put on this Earth to do and that has always been the case and I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept that the things that we believe today have very little to do with the things that were believed 6,000 years ago yeah like there's a there's a lot of you know novel beliefs that exist in you know various churches and denominations today you know and by novel I don't necessarily mean like from the 1970s I mean it could have been from like the 1570s you know um because that's that's a lot newer that's a lot closer to us than it was to you know the Apostle Paul but yeah you know just this this idea that that there's no Universal theology is is something that a lot of you know Christians and pastors have no excuse for this you know but like you know so many pastors still do like they just don't understand like look your version of Christianity is not the only version of Christianity it's not you doesn't like there's nothing to say that you are the most right about it and there's nothing that says that we can't change as a church how we understand something you know because tends to reveal more and more information exactly um and it just kind of goes to that like problem that I have with you know things like answers and Genesis right like it's just like they they want to remain ignorant of of like science just so they can keep pumping out like their same theological point of view yeah and I get it and I know you get it too like the gravitational pull like this it's so attractive this desire to want to find a singular truth to like to find the ultimate answer to the question of life the universe and everything right 42 right the the the appeal of that of finding that answer is it's a drug but the problem is is people who start pursuing that get so tunnel vision that they forget that there's actually a whole another mission the church is supposed to be about you know that bringing bring once again we we we keep grinding this ax bringing the kingdom here to Earth for anybody who hasn't watched the show before uh we are we are really hardcore Believers that the church exists to make the lives of other people better in measurable ways and so like these these other Pursuits as Noble as they are get in the way of the actual Mission you know so that's my first thing that breaks the church yeah and just uh you know bring something maybe a little bit scriptural to this yeah um no man don't do that why do you want bringing scripture into it man hit me hit me I know and course like I just I need to go oh of course you know iOS updates got to just make everything janky here thanks Apple um yeah so you know I'm like so this this past uh Sunday when I preached you know I I ended up quoting some Matthew um because of course like the the section I was teaching on in John um it was you know Jesus saying is like look you turn to the scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life but you don't come to me um you know and to that effect um you know we have you know Matthew 23 uh chapter 23: 23 um you know we have woe to you teachers and of the law and Pharisees you Hypocrites you give a tenth of your spices mint and d and cumin but you have neglected the more important matters of the law Justice mercy and faithfulness you should have practiced the latter without neglecting the former you blind guides you strain out a net but swallow a camel I just I had to add you keep that last line in there just because it adds so much you know yeah um but you know it's it's that idea that you know so many Christians are are worried about you know the mint and the dill the [ __ ] um so like they're obsessed with well is like what what is you know LGBT stuff you know and and and that's and and that it's kind of unfair to shove all those letters together because they represent some very desparate things but it's just like they're so concerned about that being a problem that they're forgetting about mercy and Justice and they're not doing that yeah so it's like you know I feel like if you want to if you want to say it's the devil then we can say it's the devil uh I think it's going to use that tool of of lgbtq plus issues to keep the church from actually being effective and from doing what it's supposed to be doing like this is this is a this is a distraction yeah and I think Andy Stanley is moving in the right direction of trying to make it less of a distraction even though he's kind of inadvertently distracting others but you know what can we do about that right that's just the unintended consequence of of doing something that gets the spotlight totally all right my next thing Old Guard pastors conveniently forget all the biblical examples of God's working through those who would openly oppose him um like some think think of something as simple as the Passover right um all of Egypt saw Israel as nothing more than forced labor they were nothing more than muscle and they weren't even hired muscle right they're enslaved muscle and yet it is through these Egyptians that we get this beautiful tradition that that now has served us well for literally um thousands of years where where we remember we take a day to remember God's mercy on us you know uh something like like uh like Judas betraying Jesus is an example if we if we're going to call it God's plan God's plan inh habits and circles and takes into account those who don't even call themselves gods or those who would turn their back on God those who haven't developed maturity to turn away from gold when the choic is between gold in Jesus right and and God's plan encompasses all of that and there is no need for us to make enemies unnecessarily of those that God has already put into motion for his own purposes you know yeah it's I you say like the old guard conveniently forgets you know that I I like that I like that turn of phrase um but like there's other part of me that's just kind of like yeah I don't think they care either that's like I I don't think they care to remember that right and it's I think it's just because when you have somebody else that you can point to them and say okay oh hey yeah you're you're coming after me you're attacking me you're the one that's trying to undo everything I believe in then you can villainize somebody else and then they become an enemy and then you can feel good about yourself yeah because you you like oh I'm the victim here like I'm not the victimizer I'm the victim yeah um of course you know the truth is I think you know really is that it comes down to it's like they complain about being attacked on these fronts because they see their church is shrinking and they need to blame somebody yeah so they need to complain about you you know atheists or lgbtq Plus or whoever else just so that they can fail and and feel like they still have dignity about it even though it's their failings that are the cause preach it brother
preach cool cool I like the Rhythm I like the rhythm of that I think have you been drinking no I tea I my my throat my throat's been hurting so decaf is what is on the agenda uh every morning and every night decaf tea my brother yes I'm drinking my truly here so clearly you and I have beef with with the people who want to crush any attempt to build Bridges between the church and the lgbtq I really do think that the fix for this is fairly remedial like I don't think this is an incred theological conundrum to solve our way out of right the two greatest laws two greatest Commandments love the Lord your God love one another every Christian at a in a very early part of their path is understanding this verse um that that there were so many times in in Jesus life that people or even the serpent would try to trip him up that you know you know um theological puzzles doctrinal puzzles um intellectual puzzles right and this was another one of these where where you know the the leaders of the time wanted to to get this false Messiah off their radar right and and and one way to do it would would be to find him in some sort of theological error because how could the Messiah be in theological error right and Jesus reminds us that love is the law love is is what is given from God and love is what we give back to God and love is what we give to one another and everything else Falls by the wayside if love is not involved and not love like oh well speaking truth is love or my version of Love Is Love no no no no no it's it's like love as the person who needs it love that is the love we're talking about here love God as he needs it love people as they need it and everything else can work itself out somehow and I think that is the fix that people need to stop playing intellectual games theological games um apologetic games all you apologists out there who love doing that kind of Tri spiritual trigonometry you all need to stop rewind and ask yourself am I proceeding with an arrogant heart wanting to prove people right or wrong am I proceeding with an agenda or am I just proceeding in love and do does everything I say and do proceed out of love you know and you know what it doesn't because CU unloving things are the things that hurt people right unloving things are the people are the things that cause people to go away unloving things are the things that cause people to want to commit suicide or to think of themselves as less than right and so you know when you're being loving because that's when you're building people up that's when you're bringing people in that's when you're inspiring helping people to find themselves in this whole process that's love Yeah and uh I think that will land the plane I me because like I I did want to suggest that radical transparency was needed yeah um and accountability but like you know I just can't use that for every episode right yeah well actually we could and it would be quite quite appropriate but yeah some sometimes you need to come at it from a different perspective right and hey Mark what I Oh I thought it wasn't going to
work if you watch this episode you may think that Mark and I really have a the mother of all AES to grind with the church but nothing could be further from the truth Mark and I love the church we love its Mission we want to see God glorified we are just in absolute astonishment of the things that churches do to hurt themselves and hurt the large Church in the in the process words is hard and this is where we come to talk about it so that when churches asked the question why doesn't anybody take us seriously here's your answer you're welcome so please if you've got something to say um you know leave us a comment um or a review or hit those thumbs up and thumbs down and super likes and super thanks and click click click click click and if you really want to like write your long letter to us shoot us a g an email at churches podcast gmail.com and hey if you got something out of this particular conversation and you want to see more conversations just like this click up somewhere around here for our playlist called theological theater thanks a lot
